A JourneyDigest.com Interview by Leslie White
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STRUM! I am met with guitar sounds followed by "Leslie! This is Kevin Shirley," Be-da-bum-bowm-STRUM! Yep, it's going to be a cool Monday for once. And thus begins my little strum and chat with Kevin Shirley, producer of the latest Journey CD, "Arrival," and their previous offering for the reunion that was not meant to be, "Trial By Fire." And so we start where all great cross-country telephone interviews start - at the beginning.
Shirley, or "Kev" as he is known to his website devotees, is a little groggy this morning, having come from the U2 concert last night at Madison Square Garden. "I was a little disappointed, really. Not because they were
"Well, I was born and raised in Johannesburg, South Africa. I lived there and grew up without hearing a single note of Journey. There wasn't a lot of music in our home." A stunning debut as one of South Africa's original "bad boys" landed Shirley a long-term engagement in a church boarding school at age 13. "This was very traumatic, actually." However, in one of those defining moments where life tilts a little to let in other possibilities, church school also introduced Shirley to the world of music. "There I was in the choir, and the orchestra, and being the control freak that I am, became the conductor of the orchestra." And what instrument did he play? "French horn." I relate that I also played french horn in high school, although, very badly.
"I moved to Australia in my 20's. Worked with a lot of bands in Australia's Baby Animals."
"Ah, Baby Animals," I say, "I actually had that CD." Memories are evoked of perfect anthems for a particularly nasty break-up in 1992. It was good medicine at the time. A grinding, powerful sort of rock that makes you turn the thing up and drive faster.
"You know, Suze DeMarchi is now married to Nuno Bettencourt."
"Really?" I answer. "I would love to get Nuno Bettencort's mom's recipe for Portuguese Sweet Bread." The famous recipe touted by Steve Perry to be "this wonderful kind of every day bread," in his 1999 Rockline interview. Suddenly the sounds of a guitar being exchanged for a keyboard can be heard in the background.
"Well let's get it right now. Suze -- need Nuno's mom's recipe for sweet bread. heard it is very good" Kevin Shirley is writing Suze DeMarchi even as we speak to get me Nuno Bettencort's mom's bread recipe. How cool is that? "If she writes with it, I'll send it on to you." Back to the interview, and in the background, the guitar becomes primary again.
How did Kevin Shirley become Kevin Shirley, the producer?
While Kevin Shirley has been lit with the "Journey spotlight" for the last couple of years, his credits are quite extensive and diverse over a lifetime -- The Black Crowes, Aerosmith, Iron Maiden, Silverchair, Rush. And this is just scratching the surface. Kevin Shirley's first actual production was in 1983 for South African singer, Robin Auld. At the time, Auld was with WEA records. Being the versatile musician that he is, Shirley also played bass on this album. And when did that moment come when Kevin knew he was destined to be more than your average sound engineer?
"When I won an award in 1985 for best engineer in South Africa, which I really wasn't expecting. I'm not trying to sound like Susan Lucci, but it was an honor just to be invited." Unfortunately, Shirley spent most of the evening enjoying the red wine, and by the time he had to make his speech, he was three sheets to the wind. He does remember the first words of his acceptance speech, "I've been drinking a lot of red wine, and I guess it's time for you all to wake up."
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At this point there is a break in the interview as the sound of guests arriving in the background fills the phone "What happened to you last night, man?"
Guitar strum. " I don't know. I felt a little drunk, and suddenly I thought, I'm outta here. Did you guys go back stage?" Muffled voices continue in the background, then, "Can I call you in about ten minutes?"
"Sure," I say. And in the background, "Me?"
"No, not you."
"Not me?" I say.
"Yes, you, I'll call you in ten minutes," to the people in the background.
Oh confusion. But in the background I hear guests leaving. "So you don't want me to call you back in ten minutes, then? You were talking to them?"
"Right. I'll call them back. We'll finish the interview for as long as you want. We're going to do you until you're done."
"Okay," I say, "well, do me then. I can take it." Laughter.
"My best friend in the world is probably Pat Thrall. When I'm in New York, I like to hang out and drink sake with him. We have a lot of fun." For those who don't know, Pat Thrall was a guitarist for both Meatloaf and the Pat Travers band along with many other notable associations. He now has his own groundfloor studio, StudioPT, in New York City. As a matter of fact, Pat Thrall was mostly responsible for Shirley's transition to editing and mixing with the Pro Tools workstation. And when he's not sitting behind that workstation, Kevin Shirley is a pretty active guy. Summers mean lots of time spent at the beach house and in the sun.
"I like to be active, surf, ride my bicycle, cook."
"What do you cook?"
"Anything you want. Whatever." Those of you keeping up with the Caveman's regular news updates at www.cavemanproductions.com will know that last Monday, Shirley was cooking salmon, rice, fresh corn and grilled zuchini.
"If I said 'Let's go do something fun and outrageous right now,' what would that be? What is the ultimate spur of the moment fun for you?"
"Travel," is Shirley's definitive answer. "I would pack a bag and go to the airport right now."
"And where would you go?" I query.
Thoughtful strumming ensues. "Today, I would like to go to Portugal. I would like to go to Faro, or even Faro Island in Sweden!"
"Why?"
A small guitar strum and a beat of silence later, "Well, I've never been out with a Portuguese girl." Ba-dum-bum-STRUM. "Actually, I've been to a lot of places this year -- Brazil, Finnland, Greece, France, Monaco. Gosh, I hope I don't sound pretentious." While he's been an avid Formula 1 racing fan since he was a kid, "since five years old when Jim Clark died," Shirley doesn't really have a favorite driver. "I think Michael Schumacher is fabulous."
Kevin Shirley's favorite "Arrival" picks?
"So what's your favorite song on Arrival" Kevin asks me.
"Uh" Suddenly and strangely, all the song titles from the CD have disappeared from my head. I've spent hours listening to this thing, and my interview subject is about to believe I've never heard it. Thankfully, a familiar melody enters my head, and I can sing it silently until I get to the chorus and the title, "Livin' to Do! Yeah, I really like that one because it's bluesy." And that's the truth. I really do like that one. It has a great message.
"Yeah, "Livin' to Do" is up there. I really love "Higher Place." I like the rockers more. "Kiss Me Softly" was cool.
How did Kevin Shirley and Journey get together?
"My first experience with them was when they were looking for a producer for the reunion "Trial By Fire" CD. The "let's get back together and make some money" album," still strumming the guitar thoughtfully. "They had pretty much exhausted their search. They looked at Glen Ballard (Alanis Morisette, No Doubt), but he went and did the Aerosmith album. Mike Clink (Motley Crüe, Guns N Roses, Sister Hazel), Ritchie Zito (The Cult, Heart, Poison). And finally, Sony said, "You wanna meet this new kid from Australia?" and they said, "What the hell, why not." I wasn't a Journey fan, actually. To be honest, I'd never even listened to them, no preconceptions. I wasn't intimidated by them. Journey is one of those bands that never really was big outside the border. I think maybe I'd heard "Wheel in the Sky" but that was it."
Shirley attributes a lot of the success of his Journey projects to the fact that he was not professionally intimidated by them, not having had any preconceptions of their influence and their history. "I was very forthright with them as I tend to be. I guess they liked what I did, and we worked together."
"And what's it like working with Journey?"
"It's awesome. I really liked working with them."
What does Kevin Shirley think of the new cyber-frontier for music?
"I found the Internet to be very destructive working with [Journey]. I don't think the leaking of the songs to Napster was good. In fact, I think Napster is a piece of shit. I think the guy should be in jail."
And the thoughtful guitar playing has stopped in exchange for passionate opinion. You can tell Shirley is really angry about seeing hard work go out the door uncompensated.
"I don't see Alanis Morisette and the other people participating with Napster giving their money away. Basically, it's theft of intellectual property -- of writers, of musicians. I think it's theft, and it's morally, totally wrong. I don't mind the idea of having songs on the net, but I think you need to get people's permission to use stuff. The people who keep saying that the swapping of music between kids is not destructive, they've been paid for their property. They already have their money. When they pay for the other people's stuff, the artists who haven't made it big yet, they can talk." Shirley pauses for a breath. "Well, I'm really not on the fence at all, am I?"
"So tell me again, who am I interviewing for?"
"JourneyDigest.com," I say and hear the immediate sound of a keyboard clicking in the background again. "You've never been there? That's funny because almost everyone who belongs to the Journey Digest has been to your site." And truly, during the arrival production process, Shirley's site was like the last bastion of pure, untainted information for Journey fans. Often, there were updates there on production deadlines, release dates, recording sessions, etc., when the band's own site had none.
"Hmmmm "let's see here," Shirley reads some of the headlines from the home page and peruses the web site as he talks. "Well, Sony really has fucked it up, haven't they?"
"What do you mean?"
"I just think they have handled this record very badly. I think they have preconceived notions of how many this record can sell. Steve Perry was the one that vaulted [Journey] to the heights that they achieved. I think Sony said, "With the new lineup, well maybe we can sell 500,000 copies," and they said, "We'll just leave it with that." I think if you had someone whose vision is a little longer than the next financial quarter, you might have a different result. I think Clive Davis is better at that, actually."
Davis, a 25-year veteran of A&R for Arista Records, Harvard Law School graduate and Hall of Fame inductee, was ousted from the A&R business by corporate music giant BMG when his contract came up for renewal at age 66. He was offered a lucrative chairmanship with BMG in return for his departure from A&R as well as an offer to become chairman of Warner's music group. He rejected both of these in return for 50% of a new label called J-Records after his middle name, "Jay." In an interview for the Harvard Alumni Bulletin*, he cited his disdain for working on the corporate level at the expense of his love of music as the reason for his move. Obviously, Clive Davis and Kevin Shirley share some common sentiments about how the industry used to care a lot more about the music and a lot less about the bottom line.
What was Kevin Shirley's time in the studio with Journey like?
I asked Shirley if he had some philosophy or rule that he imparts to new clients on the first day he starts working with them, and he really only has one rule.
"That we're gonna have fun."
Shirley describes his experiences starting with the Trial by Fire sessions.
"It's different, everyone's different. Ya know? When we did Trial by Fire, I had a really -- I was very insistent that they could play the entire album before we even went into the studio. There was a time when Steve Perry was really angry with me. I had them rehearsing for six weeks. However, that gave light to some of the strange interactions that were going on with the band and gave them a chance to put them aside."
In an April 1997 interview with Robyn Flans** for "Modern Drummer," Steve Smith explained what the Kevin Shirley rehearsal school for wayward studio musicians was like.
I throw out names like pearls and ask Shirley for his impression of each band member and a few others who were involved in the making of the last two Journey CD's.
Steve Smith -- "A super nice guy. Fabulous drummer. All around musician."
Deen Castronovo -- "A ball of energy. He is the one person who embodies E=MC2. He doesn't stop. Incredible voice. He's a lot of fun. He's easy to work with, and a fantastic player, actually."
Neal Schon -- "I love Neal. Me and Neal have our days," pauses to strum again, "Neal and I have our days. I really love him. He's stayed at my house many times, and as a guy, I love him. I love his wife. He's got great kids," thinking, "Sometimes we sort of rub shoulders. I don't know why that is, actually. I guess Neal always wants to rock, and I always want to rock as well, we just have different ways of getting there. He knows I'm right!!! (tongue in cheek) I tell him he's a great guitar player, and he needs to stop using all that mass of crap effects on it. Then he goes away for a couple of days, comes back and says, "Hey, listen to this. I tried it like you said, and it sounds great."
Ross Valory -- "A bass player like no other. He plays what I call "tuba style" of bass. As well as supporting the bottom of the song, he's very supportive of the songs musically. You'll see his cheeks puffing out, and he sings the bass lines. That's what makes him exceptional at what he does."
Steve Augeri -- "A sweetheart. He's fabulous, a great vocalist, and he plays great guitar. He's a great guitar player."
Steve Perry -- "Different." Kevin draws a comparison to describe what he means. "Like the other Steven, Steven Tyler. If they knew how similar they were, I know they would both hate it. They're so similar in the studio, it's amazing. I don't know if paranoid is the right word. He's um, he was a clean guy -- doesn't drink, do drugs, smoke. Doesn't like anyone around him to do it either, and he takes that to silly degrees. He checks up on people in his own ways. He's different."
Irving Azoff -- Kevin takes another weird riff on that guitar he's strumming like he's not sure what to say. "Very good at what he does. I don't really deal with him that much. He's the problem solver, but not actively involved in the making of the record at all. He's like the big brother and the mother of the band."
John Kalodner -- "John is ultimately responsible for the band being together. John? one of the things that everybody hates to admit is that John knows a hit when he hears one. Musicians are the very last people in the world who want to change a record, but he'll tell you he can't sell a record without hits on it. John knows that there need to be singles, and he's tough. If he doesn't think they're there, he makes them go back and write some more. He's a genius."
"These guys [Journey] are all phenomenal musicians, so when you get into the studio with them, it's like butter. They just play, and the songs and music come out. It's really a fabulous experience. They're all good. They play great.
What is Kevin Shirley's impression of Journey fans?
"Some people don't really understand, some Internet fans. I've had some very antagonistic Journey mail, and at the end of the day, it's MUSIC. Like what I said about rubbing noses with Neal. I count Neal as one of my friends, but sometimes you see something taken out of context, and it gets very difficult to deal with it. You're not talking to each other, you're just reading text. And it's different."
"Some Journey fans are very informed, and some are idiots. Let me see if I can find you some?" And the guitar is once again exchanged for a keyboard. "I'll show you what I'm talking about. They've got this forum on the Journey website. It looks like a nice bunch of people who go there, but you can't believe anything that's on there. Just a bunch of whacky stuff!" Shirley reads a post in which a fan is asking indignantly why Steve Smith was "thrown out of the band again." And I hope, gentle readers, that you all know by now Steve Smith left the band of his own accord before Arrival to pursue his jazz career instead of continuing with Journey.
Speaking of rumors and misinformation, I ask Shirley about the oft' repeated tale that all the members of the band had to sign a non-disclosure agreement before Perry would agree to the VH1 Behind the Music special.
"Anything I have to say about that would be absolutely conjecture. I don't have any knowledge of that. Steve Perry wanted to have a total say-so of what went on in the VH1 special, so that would not surprise me. And uh, I uh that's why it looks like the Steve Perry show."
A few final thoughts and questions for Kevin Shirley?
What are the non-work related items in your workspace right now?
"Well, I'm in my office. There's my computer..."
And I laugh a little at the idea that Kev regards his office computer as a non-work related item, as I can totally relate to that.
"Gold records and platinum records on the wall. Pictures of my son, pictures of me and my son. That's about the most important thing in my life."
And I ask him what the hardest part of being a single dad is and what's the greatest joy?
"The hardest part is not being able to spend it with him all the time, having to work. I have to say I'm truly blessed. I love being a single parent, and I don't think I'll ever change that." Sorry ladies. The man who can bicycle 20 miles in one day and get you backstage VIP passes to U2 is off the market. And I have to admire that about him. He knows what's most important in his life and he's not afraid to arrange his priorities around it. "The Leedle Prince" reigns supreme in Shirley's life.
"What was your most memorable moment during "Arrival" production?"
"There's a lot of them," more strumming and thinking, "I'd have to say probably recording "Livin' to Do" with Neal and having it mean so much to him because of his dad. That was particularly deep."
And one last question, I posed to the magnificent Caveman. "If there was one philosophy of life or one life lesson that you've learned that you could impart to your son, or to everyone for that matter, what would it be? The Kevin Shirley philosophy of life."
"Everybody should be happy all the time. How do you do that? I think you have to be really honest to yourself, and to people. And you have to be forthright. And you have to take responsibility to be honest. And you can be really happy like that. I don't think you have to lie to your wife or your girlfriends. You just have to tell them. Girls will say things like, "Do these shoes make my butt look big?" What is that? They're shoes! They have nothing to do with your ass. I can't believe I'm using that as an example. But just tell the truth. That's all. Have a great day."
And truly that is all! Thank you very much, Kevin, for agreeing to do this interview with us, and indeed, I think you have been refreshingly honest. And for those of you who haven't been to Kevin Shirley's website, what are you waiting for? Go right now to www.cavemanproductions.com and check it out.
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*Rice, Lewis. (2001). The record breaker: Clive Davis. Harvard Alumni Bulletin, 2(52), Spring 2001.
**Flans, Robyn. (1997). Journey revisited: Steve Smith. Modern Drummer.